Ep 17: Noticing the Water We Swim In

With guest Katy Lumsden

It’s the first episode of 2025! In the Good Girl Deprogramming podcast this time, Michelle talks with Katy Lumsden, an organisational behaviour and development expert with extensive leadership experience in Ireland’s public sector, churches, and trade unions. Driven by values like fairness, courage, and growth, Katy shares her transformative journey with Michelle’s book Good Girl Deprogramming and how it has influenced her life and work.

Katy reflects on how the book reshaped her perspective on societal norms, systemic patriarchy, and internalised misogyny, exploring practical barriers for women in workplaces and critiquing “quick fix” solutions. She shares a personal story of navigating difficult conversations and the power of her supportive “Good Girl Gang.”

Together, Michelle and Katy discuss collective action for systemic change, decoupling patriarchy from men, and how to foster allyship. The episode closes with Katy’s thought-provoking challenge for listeners and advice on forming your own support group.

You can listen and subscribe to Good Girl Deprogramming in all the places you usually get your podcasts.